A Question: Auction A GenCon Game?
Posted by Keith Baker in UncategorizedJun 20th, 2010 | 20 responsesI’m going to GenCon Indianapolis on my own dime this year, as opposed to being a guest. The life of a traveling DM/writer is not a lucrative one, and so I’m considering ways to cover my costs. I have an idea… but I’m not sure yet as to whether it’s a GOOD idea. So I’m interested in your opinion.
My idea is this: auction a private Eberron game on eBay. This would be auctioned as a single event, not seat by seat – so it would be something for a gaming group to go in on together. The game would be run on Thursday or Sunday afternoon, so as to minimize clashing with major con events.
The game itself would be a one-shot adventure using pregenerated characters. I like to really know the characters myself and to be able to develop their ties to one another and the story; it’s just how I do one-shots. Designing the characters is part of developing the story. However, another critical point about running one shots is that I like to present stories you aren’t likely to play as part of a regular game. The group that wins the auction can pick the subject of the one-shot from a list. A few ideas off the top of my head:
- The Lycanthropic Purge
- The War of the Mark
- The Dhakaani-Daelkyr Struggle
- Hardboiled adventure on the mean streets of Sharn
- Political Intrigue in Droaam
- Wacky Hijinx in Arcanix
- Agents of the Chamber
- Riedran Psi-Ops
… These are a few ideas, but I’ll come up with others.
Anyhow, the main question is… is this an interesting idea? Do you think there’s some people out there who would bid on a private Eberron game with Keith? And if so, what’s a reasonable amount to set for the starting bid?
20 Responses to “A Question: Auction A GenCon Game?”
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Oh man that sounds amazing. In principal it sounds awesome. Definitely something I personally would throw a bid down for.
My wonder is that if whole gaming groups go to GenCon. I can only speak from personal experience here, when I’ve been (all of that one time) it was with other friends that were gamers, but not my “gaming group.” You may find yourself selectively cutting your possibilities down by providing the option only to groups instead of individuals. Gamers are already a niche market, Eberron after that, and now it’s cut down a bit more by doing only groups. Of course that’s my critique on it.
On the opposite side, picking a group criteria does have some beneficial effects like gaming with a group of people that are already in sync with each other. That cuts down on issues like getting used to one another, a lot of meet and greet and tension at the gaming table due to personality clashes. Plus that group of friends will always have a good story to share and that’s a very unique thing to provide.
As far as price goes, that’s pretty subjective. Thinking about it I’ll assume a few things. The winning group shares the cost together and there’s at least 5 players so that cost is cut 5 ways. $100 five ways is $20 each, and I think people could fork over more than that for a unique experience like this so, maybe somewhere like $30 or more per person which is $150 per person. But really, that’s kind of on the high end I would think. In my gaming group I’m the mad crazy one for Eberron so, but I’d be able to convince them to do $30 each no problem. Say you got a whole group though that was really mad for it, possibly $50 a person making that $250 instead. I’d definitely pay for it, but getting others to do it might prove difficult. So that’s the range. I’d bet it would go from $100-$250. Maybe I’m right, maybe I’m wrong, but it’s also a pretty subjective matter. Has this been done before? Not sure.
As far as things go game conventions don’t pull in everyone that’s a fan, and the research data isn’t all cataloged so unless you’ve got your hands on some info you’re running on anecdotal evidence.
Wish you the best with this, great idea, love it. Now all I gotta do is convince my gaming group they want to go to GenCon.
Yeah, the question of whether entire gaming groups go to GenCon is one I’m very curious about. Personally, I prefer running for pre-existing groups than for pickup games, because when you take a random group of strangers there’s a greater chance of conflicting playstyles… with a pre-existing group, if there are conflicting styles at least they already know about it and the other players will be EXPECTING Trigger-Happy Ted to shoot every NPC who walks through the door. And one of the things I enjoy most about gaming is the bonds it forms within a group – so it’s always fun for me to work with a new group. Which is one of the reasons I started the whole HDWT thing.
But it may be that it’s just not feasible at a con.
Well if you were headed to the GenCon in the Southern Hemisphere I’d be keen…
You might consider two things.
a) see if an industry friend will agree to be in the game with you. Give them a support character ala DMG II rules (assuming 4e here)
b) Seperate of the industry friend thing, you might also give the winner the option of gaming with you on one of your already scheduled trips.
Not that I wouldn’t relish the opportunity to sit for a game with you again, but I have to wonder how much of a gray area this is.
I’m not familiar with the practices at GenCon, but I know Origins has a system for GM’s to “earn keep” through running events. Now, I’m not trying to equate a professional like yourself opening up the floodgate of interest to a run of the mill tourist DM posting a few events to get a break on con costs, but it still doesn’t seem quite black and white to me.
I’ll decline to quote price but will say that as someone who’s had the good fortune of playing in one of Keith’s convention games that the price range Billy outlined is well worth it for the experience.
However it ends up, Keith, I’m looking forward to a chance to hang out again (at GenCon) and still waiting for another crack at a dragonmarked d12
It’s a good question, David. It’s not something I’d do if I was a guest of the convention or of WotC. The volunteer GM system is a way for someone visiting to run events through GenCon in GenCon space in exchange for badge, room, whatever. What I’m suggesting wouldn’t use any convention resources, be promoted by the con, and likely would be run in a hotel; it’s a D&D game that happens to be run the same weekend as GenCon. I’m even suggesting Thursday or Sunday afternoon so participants wouldn’t miss GenCon events. So I don’t see a lot of grounds for GenCon to be upset. But who knows. Anyone else have thoughts on it?
In any case, there will certainly be another general hangout session… and likely even another contest for a Dragonmarked d12!
If it’s an auction where the proceeds go to charity, that’s cool.
If it’s an auction where the proceeds go to you, I find that distasteful.
This is certainly my concern, Buzz. So if you don’t mind, could you elaborate? What about it strikes you as distasteful?
From my perspective, what I am proposing is to create an original one-shot adventure for the occasion, something that will likely take me a week of my time. While I will then be left with the adventure, I actually can’t legally sell Eberron adventures. I’ll be able to run it again, but as this thread shows, that’s not something I’ve ever done for profit before.
Game design IS my business. It’s something I do professionally, for pay. Normally, I’d write an adventure for Dungeon, and I would get paid for it. I’d go to a convention as a guest, the convention would cover travel expenses, and I’d do events for them in exchange for that… and meanwhile, the conventions are themselves for-profit entities that charge people to attend.
My travels around the world have been much the same as being a guest at a convention. I run a game in exchange for hospitality – we each get something out of it. This is a step up from that, because I’m talking about designing an original adventure for this, and letting the group that wins the auction decide the period/location of the adventure… while in the HDWT scenario, I choose the game.
So… if I was a musician and was giving a private concert, would it be distasteful to charge? If I was an artist making a painting, would it be wrong to sell it? Why is it distasteful to sell a game?
I’ve never done this before, and I’m not convinced I’m going to do it now. So I’d definitely appreciate your further thoughts on the subject. Thanks!
Honestly, I have NO clue how much you should charge, but I don’t fall in with what Buzz says, more like Billy. Having had the opportunity to game with you once, I would jump at the chance again. I think your comparison to a private artist is very good.
It is a different experience. I understand the grey area it may fall under, but it is definitely on the white side of the grey area.
I think it’s a fabulous idea. I’m not sure why it would be distasteful. As you say, it is what you do for a living.
That said, I honestly doubt you could expect to make enough from it to be worth it. Designing and running a scenario as you describe is probably… 10 hours of work? 8? (Counting prep time, pre-gen character creation, etc.). Even if you get 6 people to pay $20 each, you’re looking at $12-$15 per hour. Not to mention that’s 4-5 hours (again, including some set up time and whatnot) you’re taking away from other things you could be doing at GenCon (networking or just having fun). Hard to justify.
I had a professional, for-pay GMing gig for a while and it was very much worth it, but the circumstances were very unique. The truth is, I’m not sure people value good GMing enough to pay adequately for it. There’s an attitude, I guess, that since the GM is playing the game too, he shouldn’t be compensated for his time. Few understand that while being a pro running games isn’t arduous, it is indeed work.
I’ll be interested to see what would happen if you try it, though.
Monte
…just read your post about it taking a week of your time. That makes my concerns even more true.
I’m sure the players would have an awesome time, though.
I think if you put the auction out there and promote it, someone will slap the cash down on the barrelhead. I know there are quite a few groups, not necessarily even gaming groups in and of themselves, but people connected by local gaming clubs and whatnot, who carpool to conventions like GenCon and will plan to form groups to sign up to play in Con games they’re mutually interested in, so I think it’s likely those are the folks who’ll be interested in bidding. In promoting it, you might also want to consider tipping off the RPGA and other gaming organizations to it since you can probably hit bigger “Clusters o’ Gamers” that way.
The only issue I see, which Buzz has brought up, is one of outsider perception. Now, folks have been running pay-to-play Con games for ages and it doesn’t offend my sensibilities at all. But there are people who DO take offense at it and the argument I tend to hear from them is that they think it’s a sham because they can play the game themselves for free. Now of course, the fact that it’s the designer of the world running this particular game is likely to sway a good number of those folks. The rest, though, won’t pay for gaming no matter what and think that selling game sessions is disreputable (and therefore wouldn’t have bid in the auction anyway, so no real loss there). There’s really no way to change their minds about that, though some will make exceptions for charity games (as Buzz mentioned).
The other most likely negative response would be from folks who don’t like to see what they perceive as well-known people “cashing in” on the fact that they’re well-known. Now, I know that wouldn’t be the case here. I also am acquainted with enough writers to know that to make ends meet they have to pimp the hell out of their “personal brand.” There’s no choice in the matter – they HAVE to. I don’t see this as being any different, so to me it’s not a big deal. The thing is that the folks who DO take offense think of it as disingenuous, apparently not realizing that becoming well-known doesn’t automatically come with a thick bankroll, a yacht and a private jet.
I’d say the best approach to take in presenting the auction would be to keep the tone positive to show you’re in good humor about it and make sure to mention that you’re doing it to cover costs that you’re not going to be able to take care of on your own. Hopefully that’ll keep most of the naysayers at bay.
Keith, I kind of share the response of Buzz above + though I do not know him or speak for him, I will gladly share my thoughts with you.
First of all, know that I am a huge fan of yours–I read your blog, follow your tweets, etc. I am not trying to put your idea down or tell you what to do or any of that stuff–this is just my initial reaction.
I think that you are trying to make money off of a D&D Game. This is contrary to the official purpose of a D&D game, which I think is to have fun, right? Once money and fun mix everything gets complicated.
The fact that you are trying to do this in “association” (“connection”, “near”, not sure what is the right word is here) also concerns me. If you are trying to make money to offset the cost of the con, why not do this at your house, why go to GenCon and do it during a slow time of the Con?
I think that you think that you could make more money during the con, right? The market would be flooded with interested players–more demand, more money.
Cool. You have a right to make money. This is America.
But doing it like this just seems a little shadey, not really in the spirit of the game, and not really something I would be interested in.
I would travel a long way to sit at your table–I would also gladly help pay your travel costs–but paying you to run the game some how changes things, I think.
Again, these are just the first thought off the top of my head–I do not mean any offense.
Thanks, David S.
David, Monte’s hit a key point here. I’m not looking at this as a way to MAKE money. Unless people were willing to pay a lot more than I myself would be willing to bid, I wouldn’t make back my travel costs, let alone get any compensation for the time I’d spend making the game itself. And I put a lot of time into developing oneshots.
If my goal was to make a profit, I’d do the following things:
* Run a single adventure written generically.
* Run that adventure two or three times a day, every day.
* Most likely, auction seats individually.
Let’s assume 12 games x 5 people per game and $20 per seat – that ends up being $1,200. That would cover my travel expenses and likely leave me with as much as I’d get if I sold the adventure to WotC in the first place. If I used an adventure I’d already written, that’s pure profit.
That’s not what I’m suggesting. I’m proposing a single game created for the con on a subject of the groups’ choosing. It is something that would help offset my costs, and thus make it easier for me to justify the trip. But it’s not something I’m doing as a profit making venture.
As for “I think that you think that you could make more money during the con, right?” no, not at all.
As some of the people who have already posted here can attest, I have spent a while traveling around the world running D&D games in exchange for a sofa to crash on. I haven’t charged for those games, nor do I plan to in the future. I haven’t asked people to help with my travel expenses. I’ve stopped doing this now because, frankly, I can no longer afford to keep it up – and I would like to continue when I have enough money to do so. When I do, I won’t be charging for THOSE games. I don’t auction the seats at my table when I play with my friends.
I’m not suggesting this idea because it’s GenCon and I could make more money at GenCon. I’m suggesting it for one simple reason… I’m GOING to GenCon. Doing so is costing me enough money that as a freelance game designer – a business that doesn’t pay well – I have to consider if it’s worth it. This idea is a possible way to offset part of that cost while still doing something fun.
However, the idea that I’d be creating and image that I’m trying to squeeze money out of fun-loving gamers is one that deeply troubles me. Even if it’s a minority opinion, I’m not sure it’s a can of worms I want to open. Which is, of course, why I started the conversation in the first place. So thank you for your honest opinion.
Anything that has a “little” controversy is going to get people of different opinions. Last week, the Utah AG tweeted about putting a man to death. I saw posts where people thought it was despicable, and others where they didn’t understand those people.
If an action is not part of the norm, people will either side or be against it. It may become the norm, down the road.
When you look at the proverbial can of worms, think of this. Say you are successful. You cover all of your costs, everyone has a GREAT time. So much so, they say it was the greatest game of their life. Next year, 3 other game designers do the same thing. What if 9 more the next year?
Is it worth taking that chance? Obviously, if it was successful, it was successful because it was fun, which is WHY we play these games.
As an experiment, I definitely think it is worth trying out. You are a professional, you do this for a living. You see people pop up around “gatherings” to get a little profit all the time. What does it it matter, if one more person does it?
I like the idea, and I’d certainly bid for an individual seat if it was a reasonable bid and it didn’t conflict with my existing schedule. I would have to talk with my group and see the final schedule before I was willing to put in a bid for the entire group.
Set your staring price point to the absolute minimum you would need in order to attend.
Some suggestions:
1) Run this game Wed Night at the hotel, before GenCon officially starts, or perhaps run it as a midnight madness session? This eliminates the possibility for any conflict, but still makes sure you get your target audience.
2) Offer two games. Set one game as a group purchase. Set the other game where individuals can bid for seats. There are a lot of folks who are willing to put up with the random chance of play style conflict.
3) If you are only doing this to cover your gencon costs, then add in that any money generated over that cost will be donated to the gary gygax memorial fund, or some other charity of your choice.
After seeing the response and thinking about it, I’ve decided that I’m not going to open this can of worms right now.
I am still interested in the discussion, and I’d especially like to hear more from David, Buzz, and anyone on that side of the fence. I understand that this is something we all do because we love it, and thus the sense that someone is trying to profit off that is distasteful to some. But step back a moment and look at what I offered again.
I AM a professional in this field. I create adventures – stories – for a living. I am paid to do this. What I suggested here wasn’t simply to RUN an adventure, but rather to CREATE an adventure for the occasion, and allow the group to pick the subject. If I was doing the same thing as an author, it’s not just that I’d read you my latest short story, but that I’d ask what you wanted me to write the story about and THEN read it to you. In terms of the time involved, running the game is actually the least of it. I want to explore the chosen period in depth. Let’s say the group chose to have an adventure in the War of the Mark. I’d have to deal with the following:
* Develop the history of at least one period of the War of the Mark in enough detail to place the scenario.
* Come up with an interesting system to reflect the greater powers of the Aberrant Marks of the time, something I’ve worked on in 3E but not 4E. If the PCs are aberrants, this could involve developing new powers, paragon paths, or potentially entirely new classes.
* Consider the weapons and war magic the Houses developed for this conflict. This might deal with new (old) Cannith constructs, Vadalis creations, pre-Korth Edict house militias, and so on.
… and all this on top of the everygame stuff of having a good story, interesting NPCs, interesting decisions, challenging combats, and all of that.
So the original offer wasn’t just whether it’s worth $20 to have me as a DM – it’s about the value of a chance to pick your favorite unexplored period of Eberron’s history and get to see that through my eyes.
BUT… the fact of the matter is that I simply don’t have time for it. With preexisting travel and my paying work, I’d drive myself nuts trying to squeeze this in. So, not this time.
However, I’m still planning to run *A* game at GenCon – see my next post for more details. Thanks to everyone who’s participated in the discussion so far, and it’s certainly a topic I want to discuss further in the future.
Well, I can honestly say, that having you as a GM was a VERY unique and great experience in my 20+ years of gaming.
I can understand the criticism, but honestly, allowing people to experience what you have to offer is a true once in a lifetime experience. Not to mention, seeing Gloom played the RIGHT way.
I wouldn’t let this idea die, but maybe change it for the better, down the road.
It’s certainly a discussion I’d like to continue down the road. It’s a matter of clarifying what makes it worthwhile for all parties involved, I think.
Hi Keith
I have a different suggestion.
I think Monte has a point that your hourly fee for something that you’re doing as a professional doesn’t add up. You’re an artist. No way could 6-7 people pay for what this should really cost.
My suggestion would be a little different.
1. You set up a PayPal “donate” function on your site somewhere.
2. You calculate how much money you need to have a comfortable trip to GenCon. Say USD 1000? More?
3. You blast all your fans with the info that you’ve worked like a madman and really need the break and go to GenCon. So you’re spending one week writing up an amazing short story for the Eberron setting and when donations reach you’ll publish it online.
4. Every morning you update a “donate-o-metre on your site so people can see how far you and they are from .
This way, you can get the amount you need, feel well paid, and can spread the pain over more people and everybody feel rewarded because you’re a fantastic writer.
I’d certainly donate.
Risk: won’t be available in time for GenCon. Luckily the donate-o-metre is controlled by you so you could call it “enough” at USD and run.
My 25 cents.
Hugs,
Christina